Talking about the companies you worked with, what have been the difference in those journeys where the companies scaled from 50 to 100x and those that could just scale to 2x or 3x? Yeah, It's a great question. So there is you know, Bill Gross at Idea Labs, he is a serial entrepreneur and he's invested in lots of companies, so he did this research several years ago and 200 companies that they had invested in the US over the last 15-20 years, the number one factor that they found for startup success was not market, not team, not, you know, products, not some bell and whistle feature, 'twas timing and so it is our belief while you can't predict it as an entrepreneur that if you have tailwinds behind your back or the timing is right or the market is just ready for your solution that is often the big difference between companies that really break out and those that don't. Actually have a little bit of pyramid so at the risk of boring you here, I'll walk you through it and I've written a blog about this on LinkedIn, which says does the customer have a known or a latent problem? Are you solving that problem or is the customer solving that problem through some other means? Has the customer solved that problem through some other means and is not satisfied, the third level of the pyramid and ultimately are they looking for a better mousetrap? Are they looking for a better solution? Most of the real breakout startups, start at the top of that pyramid. Customer has a problem, has some solution which kind of works but they're not really thrilled with that solution and you come with a better solution and this will work both for often people say how will this work for the iPad or the iPhone or an Airbnb? It'll work because it's a latent need. Its' that, there's not enough hotel rooms or hotel rooms gaudio for margin or whatever it is or and so forth. So really timing and getting some, you know wind behind your back or some current behind your back so that you can get velocity that is often the predictor of the difference between the 100X and the 3 to 5x kind of startups. There's a famous Steve Jobs quote that "People don't know what they need, it's the entrepreneur's job to find out." How do you relate with that? How does the entrepreneur find the timing of what people even don't know what they need. Absolutely. So, you know, there is but one Steve Jobs in the world maybe there are 14 more right? And if you are one of those right? More power to you and more luck to us if we get to work with you, but there are often Siddharth, proxies right? I think it's a very easy way to kind of dismiss the problem because let's say when you take the iPhone or you take the iPod or you take Airbnb whose example, I was just starting, there's often proxies to say hey what happens, right? So the Airbnb founder said look when you have events, that's how they started and there's large number of people coming so now in London might have an India-Pakistan game in the World Cup, you know, everything is going to be sold out or it's going to be 4,5,6 hundred pounds at that point I will have no problem staying in somebody's house or somebody will have no problem renting their room in their house for a hundred ,hundred fifty, two hundred pounds. So there is often some insight or some proxy to say is this happening, so if you saw that on peak events, you know, hotels get to hundred percent occupancy or 2x the, you know, typical arpu or the ARR that they charge then you say hey, look is this a real problem when you are going to revent, how do you deal with it? So I think that yes, if you're the genius and you can see, you know clairvoyance and you have the eight ball in front of you more power to you, but in many cases you'll find the proxies, right? And now, with all it doesn't take a lot to build a tech company so you can actually build some MVP, some prototype, some smart unambiguous, unbiased questionnaires and really try to validate that. So you're right you can't predict perfect timing, that's a myth, I mean no illusion of that but to not have some intuition or some idea of what they're looking at, totally agree with the point that you know, like Henry Ford said or Steve Jobs said "If you went and asked for what people want, they would never say I want a car you would say I want faster horses, but then there is a way to unravel that so I believe that you know being savvy about customer, customer insight, market can also help you figure out latent demand, can also help you figure out new products and services. All that said 90, 95% of new startups, even the ones that are successful and go scale up 100X are often even in expressed demand, which is not identified early enough right? So you don't need a proxy, you mean, you have that thing then people are trying to use this and this is not working. And if you, if I build a better solution here, which is 10x better or differentiated or cheaper or faster people will adopt it much faster than trying to, you know, pedal a new widget. Let's take some examples of that prime portfolio, like Easy Tap or some other companies, sure, where you have seen such kind of hyper growth because of the timing, yeah, so for example, let me take My Gate as one example. So My Gate you know, when we invested in it, they were in 20 apartments, literally a security system to enter and exit, infact one of the early apartments fortunately, for me was my apartment here in Bangalore. And you know when I first saw it, I'm like, yeah, you know security entry/exit fine, this a little bit more convenient and then I would use it every day to come in and go and then over time it started being that everyone that would come, whether it was a Flipkart delivery or Amazon delivery or a Freshmenu or a Domino's pizza they started using it and sort of life started getting more and more better and more and more convenient and then obviously, we, you know, we pursued the founders actually one of the rare cases where we did an outbound call to the founders and said, hey look this seems very interesting, what you're doing and if we talk and now of course there in thousands of communities and millions of visits and households that they're dealing with, so literally from when we invested to now, you know, it's grown quite dramatically and it is a somewhat of a latent need if I look for people that hear about My Gate for the first time they're like really like okay, you know, what's the deal? And now of course we are pan India were growing like anything in, you know, Delhi and Mumbai and many other cities in India, Hyderabad, etc Pune so that is one example. Neo is basically building a digital bank for the masses, right? And so they have a product for blue collar workers, they have a product for white collar workers, so basically if you look at even though a lot of people had theoretically debit cards right, tied to the bank accounts through you know, the Pradhan Mantri Jan Dhan Yojana lot of them really were not really doing banking per say and certainly they were not getting their salary, right, there were getting their salary in cash so they started actually before the demonetization but demonetization really took them through the roof because basically everything went to digital for that time and then these workers started receiving the salaries digitally into their bank accounts and having a card which they could use as an ATM card or debit card, card at a point of sale terminal so even a normal blue collar worker working in Uttar Pradesh, getting a daily work on a construction site now has a digital identity on the banking system. So again that company has done really well. So I think that, you know, and like I said, in this case it was not planned right with demonetization came in as a really big, you know push to accelerate it. In other case I think the entrepreneurs were really bright to identify a latent need which was the MyGate example. So there are many examples I'd love to take you through many more if you have time. Amit, what are the common mistakes you have seen your portfolio founders make which avoids them in the growth or scale? Sure. So I think the first thing I would say Siddharth is that they need to they often tend to you know, startup founders are very missionary, They're like Super Woman, Superman whatever can do everything so they don't end up investing enough to build the next level of the leadership team, right so they don't end up investing enough in building the for scale and you understand right because they coming from a famine to little bit of a feast assuming they've done some fundraising or the business is generating revenue, but investing in the team is one that I would pick. The second one is not enough formal investment on product or go to market. Earlier it used to be enough to build a great product and you know, the customer will come it's no longer enough to do that Right? And so investing in product, building a product or maybe hiring your first product manager, whatever somebody is going to look at metrics, etc that's another one. And now the game is as much about product as it's about distribution and not just paid distribution in terms of putting things on Google, Facebook and so forth but really also organic distribution out there is there any kind of distribution hack is there a B2B2C hack or something like that? So those are two or three areas that I think we could potentially over invest in, you know, as early stage investing companies right. We see a common pattern in the last two three years, B2C companies investing a lot in Facebook ads and then growing it month-over-month and calling it growth. Do you see that pattern still now? Companies ditching that for the purpose of organic growth? Yeah, I think you know, this is a tricky question, right because there is, in a startup what matters most is the velocity and if you're building a new idea or a new product you want to get there as early as possible and stake some early ground. We definitely are of the opinion that if you don't have like I said earlier either timing or real customer demand and some organic tailwinds behind you it's going to be build it's going to be difficult to build a large sustainable company. Now, you can overcome that need by having lot of access to capital or raising a lot of capital or storytelling to raise a lot of capital that's certainly one way to go about it and if you can, you know more power to you so as long as you're keeping an eye on the unit numbers and contribution margin and so forth. So I would say that, you know for founders that are able to raise a lot of capital and I think the VCs are and we are, you know, these people like us are equally to blame. I think there is still a lot of growth on paid marketing and discounting and so forth. Whereas I think a lot of the companies that are built to last are really have very very sizable organic growth, sizeable referral, sizable NPS on organic customer acquisition. So it's a tricky one, right? Can you share some examples where you have seen portfolio companies or companies you have known closely, building strong organic modes lots of companies actually, right? So without giving the kind of hacks away in many of these cases there's a lot of different organic kind of mechanism by which people are sort of building demand right? I won't name companies here, but either as an alternate or an interesting distribution channel, which is aligned to you, right? So often I mean these tend to be B2B companies so like B2B2C kind of channels. That is an interesting one or you have some unfair advantage on SEO or you know or Google play or something like that that's another one. Another one is if there is a product that has an inherent let even let's even leave alone virality part, a word-of-mouth component, right? That is very very interesting. So yeah, I think there are companies that are that have done a lot organically, I am not saying you never have to invest in marketing, of course you do and if it's a B2C company, you know even a Coke today with, you know, one out of eight drinks a day being a Coke beverage, right, still has to invest 20 percent 25% of their annual revenue or GMV either way in marketing, but at least in early stage if you don't get that organic tailwind, I think that's where the issue is, is to, you know, can you just burn your way into creating an opportunity? And that's where I have my doubts no entrepeneurs focus on Building Solutions both B2B and b2c where this is such a better product than the existing one in the market. How do you see forth in future as an investor that this can be the 10x product? Yeah. Often the proof of the pudding is either in the customer or if you can empathize with the product yourself as a consumer or as a B2B customer, then you can, you can really tell right the difference between a this is 50% better or this is 500 or a thousand percent better is actually fairly, fairly straightforward, right? Because it just dramatically, you know improves either your ability to make revenue or to save cost or just improves your quality of life or saves you 10x more time. Whereas there are a lot of products because it's so easy to start a company And it's so easy to build a product, there are a lot of companies and products which are 20 30 50 percent better. I'm not saying that's a bad thing, that's bettering the state of the art, but that's better for an incumbent, that's better for somebody who already has distribution already has cash flow, already has a balance sheet. If you're a new person or a new company or a new brand for you to break out you need to be 10x better. So I think there are enough proxies by which you can tell and some of it is a conjecture, I mean at the end of the day, it's really the customer, either business or consumer that'll tell whether it's 10x better. But in early journeys as VCs evaluate startups, often founders' passion and storytelling are you know noise in the actual signals of 10x? Yeah. No, that's absolutely true. And I would say not only in the early journey, even perhaps up to a series A, it'll often times we talk to our own investing companies, I think it's a combination of data and storytelling, probably at every stage of the journey, but certainly early stage is a lot more storytelling and less data, but you know when you go talk to your prospective customers, when you go talk to your, like if I'm launching a new card or if I'm talking to an employee who lives in a community without My Gate or with My Gate or if I'm talking to somebody, you know who use an H and I, wants to invest in an alternate financial instrument and you talk to them about a credx or a smart owner they will either get it like that and say hey, I need a login, I need an ID. I need like can you get me on? Like I want to discount this invoice. That's just, completely makes sense and hey you didn't give me that data right or you didn't connect me to the person or the website is closed it's only for invite only access right as opposed to you know, like hey, you should invest in this or you should join that website or if you download this app and you're like well, yeah, you know, you know, I didn't get around to it and so forth. So there are enough proxies that you can use both as an entrepreneur and certainly as an investor to gauge, you know, does this have legs or not. Now doesn't mean that you're going to be, you know, serving a hundred million customers or more or be a unicorn or raise hundreds of millions of dollars or make hundreds of millions of dollars, even better but at least you'll get a sense for you know, is this something where people are just you know, supremely excited about this. And by the way, everybody doesn't have to be. As a product management theory I'm a real big believer that some of the best products which have a lot of customer love will also have a lot of customers that hate that or prospects that hate that, I actually love that. I love that dichotomy, right? Because you can't build some universal Swiss Army knife that is going to work everything for everyone all the time, it's very very very very rare. So I think it's totally fine for customers to hate you, it's when you get in this like yeah, it's kind of nice to have it's kind of useful, that's when you get into trouble. Right? So Rahul Vohra from Superhuman wrote this beautiful article, which you may have caught, on how they hacked product market fit and he has his framework called I think HXE, which is high experience, you know customer journey saying if you went and asked even your first 10 customers, or hundred customers or thousand customers, right depending of the B2B, B2C think if I was to shut down tomorrow, would you be deeply disappointed, somewhat disappointed or not disappointed at all? And the rule of thumb that you know, he and a lot of other people that have built that framework have argued is if 40% people are not deeply disappointed then probably timing is not on your side, right? Product market fit is not on your side, momentum is not going to be on your side, doesn't mean you don't have something valuable. Maybe you've to pivot a little bit, maybe you have to find the right customer segments for where this will be a deeply disappointing thing if you shut down. So I think those are the things that I would focus on.