What power does a celebrity adversaries a brand look obviously the number one quality that the celebrity brings to the table is clutter breaking right? The first job of any brand is actually to break through clutter. I mean, there's a very famous marketing saying that if you are a if you are a if you're a food brand, it's not that you're just competing for a chips brand. For example, you're not just complete competing with chips Brands. You're also competing with Coke you're competing with surf Excel you're competing with flipped audio competing with Amazon because the consumer has only so much mindspace look at a typical capsule of advertising in a break in a cricket match you have so many ads being thrown at you. So you're not just competing with other brands for mindspace other brands in your own category are also competing with all the brands of the world. So I think celebrity at the very very least offers you a chance to break clutter. It stops the consumer from using the remote at the very basic level. I can do the point that I alluded to earlier but that's not good enough. I mean just choosing a celebrity to break through the Clutter results in extremely lazy communication and campaigns and I fear that we are seeing a lot of that and that's where I believe that if the startup team and the marketing team actually work together to you know, figure out the reasons for using a celebrity and more importantly try and get a match between the celebrity and the friend understand why the celebrity Wants to do what they're doing for example in both the cases that you mentioned a bigamy and baijiu by the way, we've spent significant time with Shahrukh Khan and Deepika. They believe in the brand they believe in what we are doing they actually play a small role in the kind of work. We do they have inputs on the campaign by Shahrukh Khan has seen the strategy documents of the last two by you campaigns. Now, that's not normal. You know, they are also not treating it as an acting role where they are stepping up. And of course that also depends on the kind of celebrities we work with I mean both Shahrukh Khan Deepika, Want to get understand the brand work that they doing they're interested. They're intelligent enough to give inputs. I feel that that's the best situation to arrive at where it's a partnership. It's not a mere endorsement in the case of Deepika with Abraham and she's actually an investor in the company. So she has skin in the game too. And I think that's really the the best kind of endorsement that you can have. So I would say there is there is no thumb rule here. I mean, please the worst damage that can happen is if you if you just pick if you You decide I have to work with a celebrity. I think the marketing strategy has to come first. The creative idea is to come next and then you decide if you're going to use a celebrity or not. And there are tactical reasons to use a celebrity to the Strategic reasons to use a celebrity and both are valid. You might say that for this period of time. I have a specific aim, and I'm going to use a celebrity for that. For example, I know a start-up device to work with actually used YouTube Stars very effectively. I think that's a smart thing to do. It did not cost him a lot of money. It gave them a lot of visibility and connect with the particular audience that they were seeking. So it was a shock to move for a six-month period and it worked handsome. So there's that example and then there's the Other Extreme example of Shahrukh with my juice and I think there is no one-size-fits-all you don't begin life by saying I want to work with a celebrity or a Branden Dawson. I think that follows the strategy and the idea Osprey marketing. Really replaces a CMO - Tata on no, it doesn't I personally think of it as no you can't do without the marketing team to be honest. I think we are humble enough to realize that you know, we can't do that. What we do actually is if we come in at the right point of time. Like I said, if we come in at a point of time when the marketing and the brand journey of this company is being charted. We have the ability to help think through some of the core elements of the brand which is Thing from the consumer proposition. I feel that that's the most useful in many cases when we come in early when we come in at a series a together with the founder. So spring insisted. The founder has to be a part of the exercise. I mean and this is no disrespect to marketing teams. We work all the companies that we work with we work with the marketing teams, but we also insisted a found that has to be in the room and that's because at that first level the main job that Springs CO wants to do is to help craft the consumer proposition if you do it Together if you do it, right what tends to happen is that consumer proposition almost becomes a philosophy for the company to follow for the next few years and like I always say point it that it changes its evolving its Dynamic but it gives the company a roadmap. It says this is what the product is. This is who my consumer is and this is the bridge that I'm building as a marketing strategy and that bridge actually tells you what kind of products you want to build for the future. What kind of features do you want to add the you know you That's right about Steve Jobs whole mini akal, focus on Building Products features his Maniac tell focus on the consumer. I think it came from an understanding of who Apple was and who Apple wasn't what his brand was and what is brand wasn't and I think that's where spring can help that's why spring tries to hell or spring helps you create that simple framework and we can't do it on our own which is why you know your question of can we replace anyone we can't replace anyone but we can do it as your partners we have because we've done it in the past and because we love doing it and this is what we want to wake up in the morning and do on a daily basis, but we need the founder. We need the heritage of this company. We need to understand the problem that they're solving and in many cases, you know, I keep saying this people pay us a lot of money for us to come back and tell them something they said hey God, I knew this, you know, and obviously you knew it. It's their hidden somewhere in the in the company's. Let me give you this anecdote. I mean, it's the it's my favorite story. So when I was working with baijiu prior to the whole marketing exercise and it was about 3:00. Six months when we were working together you're looking at data and this is the time when I was at Sequoia and there was this video conference meeting with me sitting in Bombay Dubai you team sitting in Bangalore and everything had been done. We knew that we're going to launch a campaign. We had decided the sales and marketing strategy for that campaign. And this is the first-ever campaign coming from why do we knew what the marketing tasks? We knew the objectives we knew we had done we have got everything what we did have is that single line proposition for by you what? It did by Juke. What was by Jews offering and we were brainstorming that's seven eight of us in the room by use management team and we just couldn't we just gonna arrive at that one line and you're frustrated because we were at the deadline and we were briefing the agencies over the next two days and I remember scrolling through the website and I as we were talking like just trying to find some stimulus and I saw this line that set for the love of learning and it's it was in the It was a line written by somebody. We don't know probably by you said it in an internal event and it's set for the love of learning p.m. So the line had obviously been trademarked and I remember asking by dou V by dou. What's this and he said love of learning. That's our philosophy. Right? And I was like, hey, that's your that's your proposition. And I know this sounds insanely simple, but this happens to us time and time again, the core proposition cannot be something that's manufactured from the I'd like I keep saying what we do is not magic, you know, it's hard Consulting work. It's a discovery process. It's not invention. I know this might sound shocking saying hey, you know you guys are coming in and saying you're going to help us discover something that's to truth because the product is a Founders idea. The product going to Market is a result of a lot of work and belief of a bunch of people the proposition has to come from that idea in that belief. It can't come from the outside frequently. The answer lies within the company it lies within the founder which is why we insisted the founder has to be a part of this process because it makes our job easier. We usually end up finding the answer somewhere in this process. And hence. No we cannot replace anyone. All of these constituents are important for spring to work with but we can help find the answer we can help discover and sometimes the most simple things are the most difficult to do just arriving at this core value proposition. Translating that into a consumer proposition and then coming up with a creative idea. Now, this is Magic and that's luckily the prerogative of my partner Arun where I keep saying this right? It's all linear you will agree with the logic till the consumer proposition after that. There's no logic and that shouldn't be around and his team and he's a wonderful team of designers and writers. They take the leap from a consumer proposition to an idea and if that idea is big enough, I think it can change the destiny. And that's I think that one magic element in marketing, which is a creative product, which I hope always remains magical which is not subject to algorithms and research and which always comes from people like Arun who bring that extra special that frankly people like me cannot bring to the table.