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Many Founders face this dilemma at what point in the startup Journey. Should they get a chief people officer? I would say taxi for sure and big basket and the other companies were lucky to have you vice versa. But at what point should a start-up get a chief people officer or to begin with should they hire their first HR as well when and they are from ten people member team. I think you need to hire somebody who can at least recruit. So I think once you get in the way, Early stage recruitment also needs to be handled by the founder because you are hiring people and you need to be part of the interview process. You need to figure out whether there's a culture fit. But after you go to grow to about let's say 25 30, but that point of time it helps to get a recruiter that recruiter will at least help sift through the seavey's put out the job postings shortly make the short list and get the shortlisted candidates to the founders to meet. So I think you need to get a recruiter once you get to about 50. You also need a very Elementary HR operations person. You can show the salaries are paid on time all the basic, you know compliances are met with you know, you need to be compliant, right you're running an organization you're running. It's part of your shops and establishment act. So you need to be compliant. You can't afford not to be compliant. You can go behind bars. So need some pretty nature operations. You can do that the chief people officer. I think you need to think a little later down the road and what are the responsibilities to the chief people officer takes from the shoulders of a Founder. It's depends. On the kind of Chief people officer that you get if you have a strong Chief people officer, then that CPU can virtually become the culture torch bearer of the company. The founder still are important are still the true torchbearers, but if you have a strong CPU that CPU can pretty much take over the torchbearer role for culture can help build, you know, a strong ethical organization so that the intercompany is run very ethically because as the company gets dispersed You are not have going to have visibility, you know to every part of the organization so you don't know ten thousand miles away or 2,000 miles away in some part of the company. What's happening? Is it happening in the right way or not? But if you build the right processes, if you create the right kind of organizations, then you can be assured that whole company is run. Ethically. So CPU can build that entire process can build organization to ensure that every part of the company's run. Ethically people are afraid of the law of the Many people are afraid to deviate from doing the right things many startups which are scaling face the problem that when they are expanding rapidly, right the wrong people come in. So for example, when they received a series a or series B, they have the Mandate from investor right to scale rapidly to horribly. Yes. What would you advise at that stage is how to keep a check on on the processes, especially hiring. I think you need to always hire the right person. So because what happens is it Investors will push you they will push you to hire very quickly. But the point is if you hire a wrong person, then you're setting a journey back by almost 6 months and at that level you can't afford to set the Journey Back by six months. So you better take two months extra and get the right individual. So for example a taxi for sure we were hiring a CEO. Oh, I personally met about 25 candidates didn't like any of them. In fact one candidate. We almost made an offer Raghu and I both It this candidate was very smart said all the right things but suddenly at night with this be also made an offer but at night it struck me that this guy is not the right person because I thought about it all the questions that he had asked, you know, can I work from home? Can I do this? How far is the workplace? All that? Suddenly reminds me. This guy's not a start-up guy at all because I'd made a similar mistake in the past and realize I'm making the same mistake again. So next day morning spoke to Morgan says we should withdraw the offer we withdrew the offer. He was real. Surprise, but we withdrew the offer and ultimately we found the right CEO Urban singer. We found from McDonald's who ran McDonald's for South and West and we found him and he was a great CEO. So I think it's important to get the right person in one of my previous companies. We found a wrong Global head of sales. We were under pressure to get the global head of sales. We got the wrong guy. We got a guy who ran sales in a large company and we thought he could help us scale. He could help us with the big game hunting, but he couldn't because he Not hands on at all. So in startups you need people who can bill for scale and also can do things Hands-On. She was a total failure. So we had to let this person go and we lost you know the huge time because of this so getting the right person I think is very very critical when startups are hiring for experience specifically for scale. What are the checks like you mentioned the person should be Hands-On but this cannot be guests or be known in an interview. How should they go about it? It so one of the first cell reference checks reference checks are extremely helpful. I'm not talking about references given by the candidate because the candle gives you a reference of his or her friends, but you have to find people who is who have worked with this candidate before their feedback is extremely helpful because an interview as you said, it's not very easy to figure out in 90 minutes or two hours or three hours. You can do multiple rounds of interviews and those multiple rounds of interviews are actually quite helpful and there are many signals all along the way. Whether this person is Hands-On or not whether this person is a culture fit or not where this person is hierarchical or not there lots of signals. Sometimes you overlook those signals you overlook those signals because you want to hire your mind somewhere you are under pressure to hire. So you overlook if you keep an open mind, you can spot those signals once you spot the signals go deeper there and then you can invariably figure out what three I do Isis. Would you like to share two young Founders who want to deliver excellence and their business? I would say that the founders Find somebody with whom she can speak without being judged with whom she can share her feelings. With whom she can pour her heart out without being judged. You should find one such person the second advice. Maybe that a Founder should always treat the business as being above everything else and as being above everybody including the founder, which means the business is the most important if the founder believes at some point that I am Not the right person to run this company should get somebody else. The business is the most important. I can think of these two things which I can tell the founder and the last you have interacted with so many Founders over the last 17 years, right? What common thread you find among them which made them successful. All of them are grounded all of them understand reality all of them understand what works and what does not work all of them can recognize fluff from the real stuff. I think that's the thing common to all found is all of the good execution. All of them will do anything to make Drive outcomes. If an office boy doesn't turn up they will clean the you know tables they will do anything. So nothing is in Frederick for them. So I think Founders all founders have this in common they can execute. Well, they can understand what will work on the ground and what won't work. What is fluff what is real who is the person of substance who is a personal style? They can differentiate easily. Thank you so much. Hurry your wisdom. Culture on building teams on scaling I believe will help a lot of young Founders on building their companies. Thank you said that it was a pleasure doing this podcast with you.